Mike,
A few days ago you made some comments regarding termites in ICF units. Can you clarify something for me, specifically, Are you saying that the termites actually eat the foam or just that they make tunnels in it in order to reach anything cellulose?
I am doing some research on ICF units and am thinking about a building to be used for a shop. The only wood involved would be the truss and roof system which would be 14 feet above the floor. Floor would be concrete of course. Would probably use steel for the sheeting. Would also use wood for the door and window bucks but that would be treated. Just curious what you think of that idea.
Mark
Replies
nothing eats the foam, but tunnel thru it or around it. or excavate it
bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
Consult a local pest control person. I hear this is a topic at their national meetings.
mark, termites, carpenter ants, larvae, mice... they all use it as tunnels or nesting areas..
wether it's EPS, Polyiso.. any type of foam is ideal for them.. except the ones that are mfr'd with borates in the formulation..
these mfr's usually operate under a license from "R-Control" and are found all over the US..
http://www.r-control.com/
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It's too cold here for termites, but carpenter ants abound.. I used R control for exactly that reason.. Their stuff is called bug break and it works, bugs eat it and they die..
Mike, and All
Thanks for the info. I will research the ICF units I have in mind and see if they ar using this treatment.
Mark
Be aware that there is NO scientific evidence regarding the efficacy (especially long-term) of the borate-treated foams in preventing insect infestation. It has been called by some experts in the ICF industry as simply a sales tool. I researched ICF's for over two years and I would certainly not base the choice of block on the presence or absence of this single characteristic.
Ants are a problem of concern to me in my area. The principle advantage of ICF's is that even though the foam may be taken away by insects, the structural integrity of the building remains intact. Not so with stick-frame or SIP construction. Some of the top experts and contractors with extensive practical experience in North America participate in a forum at http://www.icfweb.com, which I would highly recommend to anyone looking at ICF. (You'll spend hours there if you aren't already familiar with it.)
My opinion - ICF is THE way to build a house. Period. The ultimate in "Fine" homebuilding.
Reality for me - I live in a geographical area of a technology vacuum, and the price of ICF would have increased the cost of my house by 25+%, or CDN$30 / sq. ft. I am presently building conventionally.
Good luck, best regards, and I am envious of anyone with an ICF house : ) -Brian.
gee, brian.... nice to know ...
maybe you could site some references that disputes the efficacy of borates ?
so, the following is snake oil : Timbor, Bora-care, Performguard, cellulose insulation......?
and on the other side of the coin, what do you do to keep the vermin out if you don't use borates ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i've talked to some of the "experts" , also....
their opinion wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that their product didn't offer Performguard as an option, would it ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry Mike, but I can neither site nor cite references (especially independent) either way. Sometimes the source of information has to be considered in order to asses its validity. That's all I was saying, nothing more and nothing less. Performguard makes a fine product, I in no way dispute that. I am sure that Mark is capable of understanding what my intentions were.
IIRC -borates in foam are NOT intended for use as a front-line defense against infestation, but are to be used as a secondary back-up in conjunction with other time-honoured traditional methods, such as termite shields, periodic soil injection, etc. This is, in my line of thinking, an admission of some weakness in borate's (long-term at least) efficacy. Also, I'm sure we're all aware that in order for the borates to work, the insect actually has to CHEW or otherwise INGEST and cause damage to some of the foam, in a quantity which will vary according to the amount needed to reach the lethal dose of boron for that particular body size, quantity and particular species of pest. If a pest does not actually ingest the foam and (borate) its presence is negated. Over a period of years (and ICF buildings will be around a LONG time) the successive waves of (hidden) assault can accumulate.
Borate - Better than nothing? Maybe. But would you base your choice of block on that one feature if another block had characteristics better-suited for your application?
I also believe that if there were some overwhelming advantage to having borate in foam that all the manufacturers would jump on that bandwagon. It is a simple matter of the manufacturer switching his raw material beads to those which contain the substance. One manufacturer (of one of the better blocks) whom I contacted about precisely this point was using beads from a supplier (I believe it was BASF) who had the option of a borate bead available however he declined to use it on the basis of lack of demand and hard evidence of its benefits.
"their opinion wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that their product didn't offer Performguard as an option, would it ?"
Mike- if I may borrow your own logic... Don't you think Performguard's opinion of its own product would be at least slightly influenced by the fact that they're selling it?
Best regards - Brian.
I think you are missing the mark when you listen to someone who claims that there will be no long term effect from borate. It is not a surface application, indeed all of the beads are coated and evan if it were to wash off the outside beads over time, the subsurface beads will retain it.
Regarding the quantity of borate needed to kill bugs, whatever amount is needed to kill a particular bug is academic. Bugs cannot live in it the way they can in wood. Yes good pest control is still needed, although with an effective "desert" terrain for them to cross perhaps not as vigorous in the pumping of toxins into the ground around the foundation.. (my opinion)
However there is a negative from the use of borate in the manufacturing of foam for structural purposes. That negative is the foam cannot be recycled, and thus scraps and waste become very long term landfill..
the efficacy is undisputed... borates do not support vermin... and they're benign to humans.. so.. borates, diatomaceous earth... neither of them require special licences...both are recognized as effective..
my personal observation, both visual and audial.. is that vermin, carpenter ants, larvae & termites .. like foam... they don't like Performguard..
like i said.. none of my projects will include any foam product that isn't treated to control infestation..... and i want that treatment thruout the product, not just on the surfaceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
As a long time user of diatomaceous earth (for the worming of livestock), I was somewhat taken aback recently to discover there is absolutely no proof that it actually works or that stomach parasites are in any way affected by it. In fact, several recent research projects, for example University of North Carolina, have found that feeding even as much as 2% of the animal's diet in diatomaceous earth had no affect whatsover on stomach parasites. All it did was make the livestock sneeze. Diatoms are former sea creatures turned to tiny bits of sharp-edged dust, according to the story, and these sharp-edged bits are supposed to be ingested by the livestock, into their gut, where they then enter the parasite and cause it to bleed to death. This is probably in the category of urban legend down-on-the-farm.
However, there are plenty of research studies to support the efficacy of borate as not only a pest preventative, but a fire preventative as well. It has been used in cellulose insulation for at least as long as I've been building houses, since the early 70's.
Now, I'd like to share my story of my first (and most likely last) encounter with insulated concrete forms. I got taken in by the flashy literature, and signed up for the $150 class with the manufacturer, then followed all the instructions to the letter. First, though, the bank demanded we do a termite treatment, so I hired the exterminator to spray $395 worth of toxic chemicals on the ground. Then, the building inspector demanded that my footers be wider, twice the width of the foundation including the foam blocks, equals 24-inches. Then we ordered Owens Corning ICFs and when they arrived I wouldn't even take them off the truck they were so flimsy. I wound up using Logix ICFs, which are much heavier duty.
Then we set up the ICF blocks, exactly to the dimension of the modular house we were soon to place on the foundation. What I didn't know was that when we actually pumped the concrete into the forms that a 34-foot long wall would maintain integrity at the footer, but would stretch to 34-feet 2-inches at 8-feet height. The walls actually stretched at the seams because the plastic webs aren't rigid enough to hold the forms in place. Oh, and I had to rush to the lumber yard at the last minute to get the two sheets of plywood and half a dozen 2x4s to patch the forms where the concrete blew out, twice.
Anyway, we survived all that, then we had to put the waterproofing membrane on the ICFs from the footers to finish grade. Come to think of it, that 1/8-inch plastic membrance is probably more of a deterrent to boring pests than the ICFs with borate.
In hindsight, the ICFs took twice as long, and cost more than twice as much as it would have cost to hire a good mason to build a 12-inch block wall with parge coat covered by tar, and a 2x4 stud wall inside with EPS insulation. The extra money went to pay for the ICFs and labor to install them, concrete, pumper truck, and the crew to stay overtime to patch the blow outs and re-pour.
I know some of you guys have had excellent results with these ICFs, but, I'm going back to the block mason who can do the job right, do it quick, for half the price, and just as good.
Incidentally, the idea of concrete houses has been around a long time. Thomas Edison built some in New Jersey that even had concrete formed cornice work. Didn't Fine Homebuilding mention that a while back?
Jolly